ANTI-CIRC MISUNDERSTANDINGS

Dorsal Slit for Phimotic Ring with Frenulum Breve and Veins

This is a long letter Michael, and I just stumble on problems in your understanding - all the anti circ sites have been misinforming you

> But those of us (a wee tiny minority) without this blessing of retractability

RS -the anti circ sites use only one study of statistics- that of Jacob Oster, if you check out my site you will find 8 studies on phimosis statistics, well theres probably about 20 all together but most are on infants, anyway recognise that this is more than a tiny minority - dont let the anti circs scare you into thinking you are a rarity,- you are not

> may possibly never entertained any notion of cleaning the phallus anywhere but on the outside. It's like one of the writers somewhere (maybe a differnt web site)wrote that he kind of likened what was visible (the reddish tip) within the hollow of a small foreskin opening, to one's eyeball. You don't go about washing the eyeball, and little more does one address the eyelids - the whole area being so delicate.

RS - I splash my eyes with cold water because it freshens me up and rinses my eyes, - the writer of the letter (I`m sure on another site) sounds like he has a bad phimosis and probably bad eye sight as well -

> I have fathered 3 boys (all circumcised I must say) so the procreative pur- pose of the old oak tree has not been in question, though there has always been minor discomfort in the initial stage of sex - trying to actually make it inside the vagina cause if the tightness at the penis tip. .. I often reflect on the similarities to my most early sexual unions because of this element of preventative-like restriction. .... and I get the distinct impression that this frenulum affair is quickly going to prevent my being able to pull back the foreskin much farther at all. It just really seems to tug up around there giving a pain to about the same degree as that from pressing a pretty sharp fingernail into the palm of your hand with a few pounds of force. It is this pain I feel in the first stage of sex. Pulling it tight like that makes evident what possibly is this infamous phimotic ring. It basically appears a little more "reinforced" right at the actual foreskin fold. It is about there too, under the extra pressure exerted in my little retraction attempt, that I see quite a lot of vein work. So my questions are now these:

> 1) Can these various cortisone creams, while somehow thinning out the foreskin, have a bad effect on the appreciable vascular network so closely involved ?

RS - less than surgery

> 2) Can these creams have any loosening or stretching effect on the frenulum ?

RS - possibly - I speculate yes

> 3) If a dorsal slit is perfomed to create a relief mechanism to help facilitate retraction, how is it possible to avoid compromising the frenulum (which I understand is so chocked full of pleasure nerves, and should be respected at all costs (For after all, we here in the states may feel entitled to the pursuit of happiness, you know).

RS -Too much anti circ rubbish .. a frenulum which is too short causes pain - yeah OK if you want all those extra sensitive nerves to cause pain then go ahead - be at the forefront of the next generation of uncircumcised Americans, who will all be infibulated complete with all their special protected (painful) nerves and thanks to the present info will believe this is normal - note: almost certainly your frenulum needs cutting -

> 4) Is the slit often made in the dorsal area since the resulting loose tissue flaps (ostensibly undesirable in appearance) would be less apparent when the penis hangs in its flaccid state ?

RS - no, the phimotic ring runs near the front on top, underneath it curves round and joins into the frenulum, this is why the cut is only effective on top, - but anyway the cut would be less visible made ventrally --- but you haven`t researched my site, and you have simply too many questions, and they are very fine points, it is mainly simply your choice, I and no-one answering here is a doctor, the only doctors involved in this subject are either passionately anti circ, or fanatically pro-circ.- find me someone unbiased to answer your questions and I`ll give him a page

Most of the answers are on my site, but anyway my site is actually not primarily concerned with adult treatment, - .... it is concerned with the ridiculous rumours which the anti pro circumcision debate generate and how this hinders education and kids being checked ...!

You seem to have adapted to your pain and difficulty without complaining, I say life could have been more fun for you ... when you agree and wanna help with future and general education then get in touch

Robin www.male-initiation.net read my site - at least the welcome page

Forum Letter 514

Written by michael at 22 Jul 2000 08:32:27:

I've pretty much read all the previous conversations and am trying to put it all together. Here we have the human penis that comes with this sort of pro- tective glove which for most fellows is retractable past the glans (head) of the penis, if it hasn't already been cut back for any along a wide gamut of cultural reasons. Those who retain this retractable skin I would guess have long since learned to dutifully carry out some form of regular cleaning operation. But those of us (a wee tiny minority) without this blessing of retractability may possibly never entertained any notion of cleaning the phallus anywhere but on the outside. It's like one of the writers somewhere (maybe a differnt web site)wrote that he kind of likened what was visible (the reddish tip) within the hollow of a small foreskin opening, to one's eyeball. You don't go about washing the eyeball, and little more does one address the eyelids - the whole area being so delicate. The inside tip of my penis seemed like something to be left alone - it didn't seem constructed to tamper with. I assummed that with normal exterior washing the rest would somehow naturally take care of itself (think of how the ear canal, eyes, and nose are to a large extent self cleaning);indeed I have never had infections in 42 years (chlorinated pool H20 helped during years of swimming helped?)

I have fathered 3 boys (all circumcised I must say) so the procreative pur- pose of the old oak tree has not been in question, though there has always been minor discomfort in the initial stage of sex - trying to actually make it inside the vagina cause if the tightness at the penis tip. But once my wife's own tightness gives way and lubrication begins then we are good to go (heh,heh) I often reflect on the similarities to my most early sexual unions because of this element of preventative-like restriction. It's one of the things that keeps me young of mind in a strange way. But now I am kind of at a stage where I want to experience what added joys and pleasure may be experienced with a fully exposed glans - that's right folks I am looking forward to going for it !! This brings me finally (almost)to my questions. I have experimented somewhat, and can manage to pull the foreskin back only far enough to expose a structure about half the tip of your little finger - that's it - without any pain. At that point there seems to be my first clue about this frenulum that is supposed to attach the foreskin to some portion of the glans (to the sulcus?). There seems to be a little ridge of skin involved right there at the tip and I get the distinct impression that this frenulum affair is quickly going to prevent my being able to pull back the foreskin much farther at all. It just really seems to tug up around there giving a pain to about the same degree as that from pressing a pretty sharp fingernail into the palm of your hand with a few pounds of force. It is this pain I feel in the first stage of sex. Pulling it tight like that makes evident what possibly is this infamous phimotic ring. It basically appears a little more "reinforced" right at the actual foreskin fold. It is about there too, under the extra pressure exerted in my little retraction attempt, that I see quite a lot of vein work. So my questions arenow these:

1) Can these various cortisone creams, while somehow thinning out the foreskin, have a bad effect on the appreciable vascular network so closely involved ?

2) Can these creams have any loosening or stretching effect on the frenulum ?

3) If a dorsal slit is perfomed to create a relief mechanism to help facilitate retraction, how is it possible to avoid compromising the frenulum (which I understand is so chocked full of pleasure nerves, and should be respected at all costs (For after all, we here in the states may feel entitled to the pursuit of happiness, you know).

4) Is the slit often made in the dorsal area since the resulting loose tissue flaps (ostensibly undesirable in appearance) would be less apparent when the penis hangs in its flaccid state ?

5) Is it within the realm of common sense that the relief cut is normally made in a dorsal location so that if the frenulum is involved it can be snipped a bit there so that now all little flaps are simply in a single area.

6) What is that frenuplasty (I know my spelling is way off here but I can't go back to check the right way at his point) procedure? I mean is there some real room for minimalism here (where you can barely notice operative cuts etc.). Or some creativity in the snipping and stitching that may be involved?

7) Given the fact that the glans itself is covered with some kind of mucosal- like tissue, how do you get this helmet-like protuberance willing to exist in the cruel abrasive environment - open hair, rough clothes, etc. - for the first time in over 40 years ?

8) (6) and (7) having been asked, is there any possibility in this fantastic technologically miraculous age of ours to install a very thin micro-zipper so that one could unzip ones foreskin zipper either for sex or for washing than zip back up? Thus any flaps that may have been a bit unsightly can be justed zipped shut. Sorta keep the skin fully intact (have cake and eat it too, if you will)

9) Have any the visitors reading the dialogue in this section, had any experience, using cream and pull-back exercises, where some ripping or tearing of the skin occurred? Did you wait for more than a day to heal up before you tried again? (Or how long?) What about any scar tissue that could then develop? At what point does elasticity begin to be so compromised that diminishing returns ensue?

10) Is there any safe tool that a man can use to stretch the foreskin opening uniformly (around the the circumference) and gradually (over hours, days, weeks)? I thought I saw some such apparatus in my surfing. It definitely could make a lot of sense. Certainly there are various peoples about the world who practice various kind of skin stretching or hole expanding using some appliance over some appreciable length of time.

(!!) Hey thanks for everyone's time. Please answer what questions you can. I believe they are all pretty good ones - relevant and haven't really been raised before. I have visited and tried to deal with a few Urology groups here in the U.S. midwest and I am not really getting very straight answers. I hope to arm myself with enough good ideas so that I can deal with any of medical community proactively and effectively but tactfully as well. I had conjured up a few notions of documenting my efforts, in a way that could foster enlightenment. I did call the local paper at one point but they are not quite ready to bite. So please supply your best ideas, piecemeal or comprehensively in your responses which I very greatly appreciate, and look forward to applying towards the pleasures of lovemaking and providing a decent follow-up here in good time(Thanks).

Forum Letter 515

Written by R J Knight at 22 Jul 2000 20:02:40:

As an answer to: Dorsal Slit for Phimotic Ring with Frenulum Breve and Veins written by michael at 22 Jul 2000 08:32:27:

Michael, it seems to me that you (and some of your midwestern urologist friends) are making what is essentially a fairly simple problem into something a lot more complicated than it needs to be. First off, your question about zippers reminds me of a story that was told on a man in Atlanta some years ago. He had married a Jewish lady and to please her had converted to her faith. There were two posh clubs in Atlanta, one with gentile members only, the other one with Jewish members only. The story was that at the time of his circumcision he had a zipper installed so that he could zip on his foreskin when he went to the gentile club, to which he already belonged, and zip it off when he went to the Jewish club, which he joined after his conversion. I met him once when he was quite old, but didn't ask him to confirm the story. (I seriously doubt that it's true.)

You ask about why the dorsal slit is where it is, and how it affects the frenulum. Placed at the top of the penis as it is, the slit does not affect the frenulum, which normally is located at the very bottom of the penis. You ask about the slit's affect on appearance, etc. The slit need not be very long as a rule, just long enough to relieve the tight foreskin so it can be easily retracted. I know a man born in Washington State who had such a tiny snippet made at the time of his birth. The result was that it was impossible to tell him from any other uncircumcised man, but his foreskin was totally free and easily retracted. Since you have lived 42 years without circumcision, it might be a bit of a shock to you to do it at this time, but it seems highly likely that a short dorsal slit could eliminate the tightness of the foreskin without having any other perceptible effect. Certainly there's no point in your putting up with uncomfortable sex any longer (and we haven't mentioned your long-suffering wife's right to having a clean phallus thrust into her vagina during sex!).

If you can find a conservative, sympathetic physician who isn't circumcision-happy but is willing to make a minimal slit at the top of your penis, you may eliminate all your problems in short order. The frenulum may not be involved at all; however, if it is found to be part of the problem, the conservative, sympathetic physician should be able to snip it with minimal trauma, followed by rapid recovery. Letters like yours make me wonder at how much some men have to put up with, and at the questionable help they sometimes receive from the medical profession. I wouldn't contact the newspapers about this at all; at best they may think you're some kind of nut instead of a citizen with a valid problem, which I accept that you are. I suggest you keep looking for a competent doctor who is willing to help you. There really are such people, and you can find one if you search diligently and are lucky! Best wishes, Bob.